Wake Up, Human
Wake Up, Human is an exploration of the native powers of the human being. This podcast examines the ways we humans have become disconnected—from our innate wisdom, from each other, and from the natural world—and explores practical strategies for reconnecting to wholeness. Drop in for information and inspiration to help us reawaken and heal ourselves, our relationships, and our planet.
Wake Up, Human
Ep.10: Everyone is an Artist | A Conversation with Denise Kester
What does it mean to be a creative person? If you've ever dismissed your own creativity with "I'm not artistic," this conversation might fundamentally change how you see yourself.
In this enlightening exploration of human creativity, artist and dreamkeeper Denise Kester reveals how our modern culture has mistakenly categorized some people as "creative" while leaving the rest of us feeling artistically inadequate. Through decades of teaching experience and her own artistic journey, Denise challenges this limiting belief, reminding us that creativity is our universal birthright—one we all possessed naturally as children.
The discussion weaves through Denise's fascinating monoprinting process, where ink layers create depth and surprises that allow unconscious wisdom to emerge. She shares how dreams and animals have influenced her artistic voice, and how both dreams and artwork have consistently served as truthtellers in her life, accessing deeper knowledge than rational thought alone could provide.
Most powerfully, Denise offers practical wisdom for reconnecting with our creative essence. Her "three deep breaths" practice serves as a bridge from analytical mind to intuitive body wisdom. "The head doesn't have anything to do with the creative process," she explains, emphasizing that our best creative insights emerge when we're present in our bodies. She also warns against "art abuse"—the destructive criticism that disconnects us from our natural creative confidence—and reminds us that we are literally made of "star stuff," with billions of years of cosmic evolution supporting our creative expressions.
Far from being a luxury, Denise argues that creativity might be exactly what our troubled world needs most right now. When we embrace our creative nature, we access new solutions that analytical thinking alone cannot provide. As she beautifully puts it: "What you create creates you." Join this conversation to rediscover the artist that has been within you all along.
Hello everyone and welcome to episode 10 of the Wake Up Human podcast. That's right, we made it to episode 10. I'm your host, shannon Wills, and in this episode, my guest and I will get creative, talking about the fundamental power of creativity and the important idea that everyone is creative, whether we think we are or not. Welcome to the Wake Up Human podcast. I'm Shannon Wills, a curious wanderer with a passion for digging into life's mysteries and mining them for wisdom to apply to our modern lives. This podcast explores the ways we humans have become disconnected from our native ways of knowing what we have lost and what we can gain by coming back into wholeness. Each episode will explore this theme of reconnecting with our innate human power in order to heal ourselves, our relationships and our planet. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let's jump into the latest installment of Wake Up Human human. What does it mean to be a creative person? In our modern culture, it's common to think of a creative person as a certain type of person an artist, a person who works with artists' tools, a painter or sculptor, a dancer or a writer, or maybe an architect or designer. We say someone is creative when they work in the world of the arts when they make and build things that are beautiful or useful. We give the creative person this image being some kind of rebel outside the box, imaginative thinker and doer. But what does this mean for the rest of us? What if we're not people who our society considers to be artists in the conventional sense? Does that mean we're not artists at all? Or what if we don't see ourselves as creative people? Does that mean we're not creative? And if we believe we're not creative, where does that leave us when the challenges of our daily lives and problems of the world are becoming more complex every day and we really need creative solutions? So what if we were to look at creativity in a different way? What if, instead, we were to know that we are creative and trust in the power of our innate creativity? What could we create then? What kind of impact could we have on the world with that kind of confidence? These important questions set the foundation for ideas I'll be discussing with my guest, denise Kester.
Shannon W.:Denise is an artist, writer, teacher, dreamkeeper and dreamer. She's a full-time studio artist specializing in monoprint and monotype viscosity printing, and we'll talk about what monoprinting is during our conversation. Denise has been exhibiting and selling her own original artwork since 1985. In her art, she explores themes of connection and interconnection with universal intelligence through art and dreams, often employing the imagery of animals in the natural world, and if you have a look at her artwork, you'll understand immediately what I mean. Denise is the author of a book entitled Drawing on the Dream Finding my Way by Art, and she's a teacher guiding a variety of workshops on the creative process, including printmaking, as well as bookmaking, surface design, collage and block printing.
Shannon W.:I reached out to Denise after watching a short video she recently published called Important Things to Remember. In the video she shares a list she's compiled over many years as a teacher. Her list of important things is advice that she shares with her students before every art class to help prime them for their creative work. But the list is not just for art class, it's also for daily life Inspired common sense guidance, helpful for addressing challenges that come up when we try to do anything creative in our lives. My conversation with Denise will take the list of important things as a jumping off point and go from there We'll weave through discussions on creativity as a doorway to the unconscious, the importance of intuition in the creative process and the idea that creativity is not a luxury but an essential need of the human being and the planet.
Shannon W.:We'll talk about strategies for accessing our creativity, including Denise's practice, for getting out of our heads and into our bellies. We'll explore the phenomenon of art abuse and why it's so important not to listen to critics and judges of our creative work, internal or external. We'll learn about the importance of exercising our imagination muscle, of exercising our imagination muscle, and we'll explore all this with the important understanding that every one of us is an artist in our own unique way. Join us for conversation on these topics and more coming up. Next. You can learn more about Denise and find her book and her beautiful artwork at her website, drawingonthedreamcom. Denise is an elder, a grandmother, a wise woman and a teacher to be grateful for. I hope you'll enjoy learning from her as much as I did. And now for the interview. Dear Denise, welcome to the podcast and thank you so much for being here today.
Denise K.:I'm really grateful to be here. Thank you for asking me. I'm looking forward to it.
Shannon W.:Oh, I am too. Thank you. Well, I've been following your work for some time and admiring it, and I've often wondered, when I see it, how you make your art. It's so beautiful with depth and layers and colors, and I've wondered how does she even make that? It looks so complex. But I've also wondered about the content of your work and the imagery of it and the energy behind it, and that's because the pieces you create seem to be so full of myth and mystery and it seems like there's almost a story behind each of the pieces. So I've wondered this how does she do it and what's behind it?
Shannon W.:And then I came across this video that you created called important things to remember, or important things to remember for the creative person, and watching that video, I felt that video gave me a little window into your mind and your heart and your process, into your mind and your heart and your process, and not only the process of making art but the process of approaching creativity and creative work in general.
Shannon W.:And I felt that the video was just full of practical ideas that everyone can use, no matter whether or not we think of ourselves as creative people, and maybe even especially those of us who don't think of ourselves as creative people, and maybe even especially those of us who don't think of ourselves as creative people, but we have something creative in us that wants to be expressed. So I was really struck by this video and I'm excited to talk with you today about it and all of the ideas that you share in the video. But first I wonder if you would share something about your journey. I'm wondering how did you get started with your creative work and how did you find your way to your work as a printmaker and come to your style and imagery that has become your creative offering.
Denise K.:Well, let's see where do I start. I, when I was a little kid, I had a dream. I think I was about six. I had a dream that was a precognitive dream and it was a very significant thing that happened to me. And when I saw that, or I had that dream, and then a few days later it played out in front of me and I just thought, oh my gosh, there's, how is that possible? How could I have a dream and then see it happen? And I knew what was going to be said, I knew who was going to say it and it really struck me as something to pay attention to me, to understand that dream better, to draw it.
Denise K.:And so as a young person, I I was drawing all the time and coloring and and kind of started paying attention to my dreams, which are very myth-like and full of story. And then animals started showing up in my dreams and so I started paying attention to the animals. And of course we always had dogs growing up and I always had dog as my best friend and teacher and companion and I talked to dogs a lot, and so I think that just got all of my imagination going and I just thought, with paying attention to dreams, that there's more to life than meets the eye, that there's something going on that's deep and rich and strange. And even though my family of origin didn't think dreams were important, they didn't think dreams were real, and so I kind of had to do that on my own. It was something that I had within me that started blossoming and with the animals, with my dogs my dog just taught me so much about life, and animals are very wise and very very. You know, they love you unconditionally, they're with you no matter what, and I love that about animals. So I don't know that's kind of where the animals started coming into my dreams and my work.
Denise K.:And I was always doing artwork all my life and printmaking. I started doing printmaking here in Southern Oregon. I live in Southern Oregon and I had a teacher, lyle Matush, who just died this year, but he taught me printmaking and specifically taught me monoprinting. And when I discovered monoprinting I thought, oh my gosh, this is for me, and I've been doing monoprinting for about 35 years yeah, close to 40 years and it's still surprising to me. There's something about monoprinting that allows what is in my heart and mind and in my subconscious to come to the surface. There's something in that medium for me that allows that to happen.
Shannon W.:Denise, for anyone who's not familiar with monoprinting, would you give us a little background of that? What kind of medium is it and how do you use it to make your artwork?
Denise K.:Well, monoprinting for me, the way I use monoprinting. Well, I should back up a little bit. If you've ever seen some of Degas' prints that are the dancers, those were monotypes. He drew that on a plate with ink and then printed it.
Denise K.:I never knew that. It's been around for a while but fortunately now back then they had etching plates and things like that. You couldn't see through it. But fortunately for us we have plexiglass or for me and I work on a light table so that I can lay a color down. And by laying a color down what I do is I've got it that I work on the surface of the plate and I generally begin with black and using a roller like a brayer and sometimes a palette knife to lay color on, to lay that first layer on the plexiglass plate, and then I use Q-tips to draw into it and other marking devices like wooden tips to draw and just move that ink around to see if something wants to emerge.
Denise K.:Generally, 99% of the time I just work intuitively.
Denise K.:Every once in a while I'll work from a photo if I'm doing a portrait or something, but generally it's just seeing what happens, laying that ink down, and then once I have an image that usually takes me most of the day to bring it out and do the drawing then I lay an oily color on top that's a little bit oilier than that first layer.
Denise K.:So hopefully I'm not getting too complicated here. But it's a laying down of inks and generally with a larger roller, and I use inks that are stiff and oily. So there's this resist that happens, and so sometimes I know that I can lay color down and it will only go in where I have it open, kind of like oil and water. They do this resist thing and so that's how I get all of these interesting things that happen that I can't quite control. And that's what I love about monoprinting and monotypes is I can't totally control it and I get surprises, and that keeps me interested. And so when I have the image that I feel is finished and complete, I put paper on top of that plate and run it through an etching press and then I pull off the paper and I have a print.
Shannon W.:This is so interesting? Yeah, because I can see why your images look like they have so many layers of depth, because they actually do. You're putting layer after layer after layer of paint and I think, yeah, that's seen in the finished product. But also, what I'm hearing is not just layers and layers of ink, but layers of surprises.
Denise K.:Yes, layers of surprises, and you know, working with it all of these years, I've learned how to layer, color and wipe away and have things happen on the surface of the plate and then somehow the story starts to emerge on the plate for me and the image starts to emerge. I should say, Sometimes the story doesn't come until later, until I'm finished with the piece and I have it up on the wall and I'm trying to title it, and then the title starts to get longer and longer and longer and become a story, and so a lot of my work does have story and I feel like the artwork has a voice of its own. You know that I am just in partnership with and just trying to listen to what it is that they are, that the artwork is trying to say we have, we have a really deep partnership and relationship, so, and a trusting relationship. There's one thing you know in in my life I feel like artwork and dream work has never, has always told me the truth, has always told me the truth, and so I always go back to it and go back to the artwork, that truth finding, just like with dream work.
Denise K.:I would write the dream and draw the dream to try and figure it out more, and just like with artwork, that's what I'm doing with that as well. When an image kind of emerges, then I'm like, oh, what is the story here? What is this about? And it's always something that I need to know personally and fortunately, the world needs to know some of it as well. But it begins with me. It has to make sense to me before I put it out into the world.
Shannon W.:I'm so struck, Denise, by what you said about the artwork and the dream work always telling you the truth. And in this world where we I think that we have been programmed to believe that science tells the truth and logic tells the truth, and very rarely do we hear something like the artwork and the dream work tells the truth. So it's a different kind of truth that you're listening to.
Denise K.:Yes, it is a deeper kind of truth and I think it is something we really need now as a species, as a planet, I feel like we really need to get to this deeper truth and and these deeper knowings that connect to our heart and, uh, the deeper cells within our bodies. That's part of what makes us human and animal. You know we're we're part of nature as well, and and we need to connect to that. Yeah, I think it's very important right now. Um, yeah, I, I do really love it. I do really love it, and, and that I love those surprises. I love it that I can't control it. I'm glad that I allow things to happen, that I'm at a place in my life, in my art, when I can let it take over for a while. You know that it wants to be. I maybe have this idea. I try not to get in the way of what my art wants to do, I guess that's what I'm trying to say.
Shannon W.:So you're letting. Maybe the art, yeah, so, as the art is coming through you, as much as you quote, unquote making the arts.
Denise K.:Yeah, the art is has a voice that is independent for me.
Shannon W.:yeah, and that is one of the things you mentioned in your important things as well. Yes, yes, the artwork having an independent voice and us being in conversation with that voice. Yeah, um, well's, let's talk about that video. Let's jump into talking about that video a little bit. So I want to start by sharing kind of a key idea that I got from this and let's get your thoughts on it.
Shannon W.:Okay, so, jumping back to where we were, we were talking about creativity, being able to tap into some deeper parts of ourselves, of our knowing, and, as listeners will know, the purpose of this podcast is to explore the ways we humans have become disconnected from some of our native ways of knowing and also exploring ways we can come back into reconnection or wholeness.
Shannon W.:Exploring ways we can come back into reconnection or wholeness.
Shannon W.:And listening to your video, I was struck by this idea that creativity and creative work and art can itself be a link back to that reconnection and that wholeness. Because when listening to your ideas, I thought, well, maybe our native ways of knowing and native intelligence is actually expressing itself and finding its voice through our creativity. So then, if we stop being creative or we get cut off from our creativity for whatever reason we might be cutting ourselves off from those deeply connected parts of ourselves, that voice that wants to come through as guidance or wisdom. But if that's true, then the good news would be, on the flip side, that we could possibly use creativity then as a lifeline to get back into connection with our deeper selves. And you started to allude to this earlier when you talked about creativity as a connection to the deeper self, and I'd like to just go a little bit further with that your thoughts on the idea of creativity and linking to a deeper source within us. Could you say more about what we're tapping into within ourselves when we use our creativity?
Denise K.:Yes, the way you just described that was perfect. It was great. I'm on the right track way.
Denise K.:In writing dance poetry, speaking the way we clean our house, the way you know life as art, you know if we can get to that place where we're deep listening. For those things like writing poetry, you really have to deep listen, you go within something With anything creative, even if it's you know, whatever it is embroidery or telling a story, all of those things. They're so important to our human spirit to be able to express those things. And I think it begins with stopping and breathing and listening and trusting. Trust is definitely up there too, just trusting that you have that voice within you and that you are part of nature and you're part of the universe. And it comes down to that being that star material. We are star material that we have access, but we have through our busy lives and making a living, making money, making a life Through our busyness. We stop hearing that, we stop that conversation, and art for me is having that conversation and letting that conversation happen, and it's very, very important.
Shannon W.:As you were talking. I remember where you talk about star stuff in your important things to remember, and I actually have that passage with an asterisk next to it because I loved it so much. Would you mind if I read it? No, not at all, please. Yeah, this is one of the important things to remember from the list. It says be kind to yourself and what you create. You are the stuff of stars. You are the physical manifestation of billions and billions of years of careful work. You are one of a kind. You are one of a kind. Here you are at this time now, with a very long line of ancestors behind you. Be courageous, be creative. So this idea of us as star stuff, as cosmic beings, as coming from a long line of ancestors that have our back in this work, that to me feels like really tapping into where we come from, really tapping into our source, whether that source is cosmic or whether that source is our ancestors who led us to be here now. So I just I love that. Thank you for letting me share it.
Denise K.:Yeah, I love that too, and it's really true. And so one of the things I add to that in my classes is, in knowing that you have this long line of ancestors behind you I mean all of these years, billions of years, for us to be here right now that whatever you create is amazing, the fact that you're here, so that whatever you create right here, right now, is perfect for what you want to do, whatever it is.
Shannon W.:Isn't that amazing? Like whatever we create is not just us creating.
Denise K.:Right now, it's like the culmination of billions of years yeah, of expansion and growth which can sometimes be a little bit intimidating thinking about that, but for me, knowing that I am the product of all of that love that has gone forward to make me me, so I know that I have that behind me and within me as I'm working.
Shannon W.:And it almost feels like a responsibility, and I don't mean that in again, not in a scary way, but almost a responsibility, and I don't mean that in a again, not in a scary way, but almost a responsibility, like we get to be here now and we were brought here as a result of the lives that came before us, you know, and we have the opportunity I suppose more than responsibility the opportunity to express now.
Denise K.:Yes, and I feel that whatever it is that has brought us here, wants us to succeed and wants us to be creative and wants us to find our way, and so I feel that, in that sense as well, we are not alone. I feel that I'm not alone in what I'm doing. I mean, there are times in my life when I do feel very alone.
Shannon W.:Sure.
Denise K.:When things are tough, and sometimes I forget, but I always come back to it, especially when I'm doing my art. I always bring that back and go oh yeah. Especially when I'm doing my art, I always bring that back and go oh yeah oh yeah, I'm not alone. And I have all of this behind me that are, and all of these people, that are, all of the women, all of the women behind me are rooting for me. To you, go girl, go on, do it, say it, say it.
Shannon W.:Yes, they are. They're cheering you on, they're cheering us all on um. So it's like, almost seems like the art is a a companion and the ancestors are a companion. Yes, maybe even the dreams are a companion yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so.
Denise K.:yes, why do we dream? It's an amazing thing, why do we dream, and so it's an important thing to pay attention to.
Shannon W.:Yes, and I love that you bring it into your work, not just pay attention to it, but manifest it out.
Denise K.:Yeah Well, and even really at this point in my life and my career, sometimes I don't remember my dreams like I used to, but it doesn't stop my dreams coming into my artwork because, I've been doing it for so many years of that and that relationship is so strong. I feel that when something shows up in my dreams, it shows up in my art. When something shows up in my art, it shows up in my dreams. So that doorway, whatever that is, that connection, that passageway, that doorway, that window is always open.
Shannon W.:That's incredible, is always open, that's incredible to have. Yeah, so even if you, even if you don't remember your dream, the dream can come through in your art, like some part of you remembers the dream. Yes, absolutely so. In that way, it very much feels like a doorway into the unconscious or the other world, or wherever those dreams are coming from. Even if our conscious mind forgets them, our heart can remember.
Denise K.:Our heart and our belly, our gut, our intuitive wisdom. It's all accessible through that communication, through that place. Whatever that place is, I don't know what it is, but I'm just glad it's there and I'm glad that I trust it and it trusts me and we can have a. We can meet out in that field together and create.
Shannon W.:I am glad for that too, and you you talking about the, the belly and the guts reminds me that that's. Another thing that you mentioned in your video is this idea of the importance of listening to our belly or our gut and I believe you even say you know, talk about the gut as the home of our intuitive wisdom that lives within us, and the importance of getting out of our heads and into our bodies and staying in our bodies, and I think that is a challenge for many people. I think we are so head focused in our society and that part of us is fed so continuously. Telling people to get into the body or get into the belly can feel like a confusing piece of advice if we don't know how to do that. So I'm wondering how does that, what does that look like to you? How would you suggest that people become present and in alignment with their bodies?
Denise K.:Well, I have a practice, and I have a practice that works because sometimes, when I'm working, I'm worrying about not so much anymore, but a long time worrying about money, worrying about who is going to relate to this artwork, worrying about where it's going to go, worrying about where it's going to go, just that worry monkey mind of that happens when we try to work or when we try to think of all the things we need to do before we can do our creative work. So my practice is when I know that I'm in my head and it's something that I talk with my students about too because we can get in our head and and that voice that's a critic, that's being critical and and keeping you from doing your art and letting go. The way to get past it is three deep breaths, is three deep breaths, and it works for me every time. And it's a practice that I continuously do when I'm working and if I notice that, oh, I'm in my head, or I'm worrying, or I don't know what to do next, or I don't know where the piece wants to go, I stop and I take three deep breaths into my belly and there's something about doing that that brings you into the present moment with what you are doing and into the present moment with what is trying to emerge.
Denise K.:But we can't do that if we're up in our heads. We just can't. The head doesn't have anything to do with the creative process. Yeah, and the head is very important, but, um, but as far as the creative process getting out of that head and into your body, into those three deep breaths, and then ask your question and then trust where it wants to go, because your body knows what to do, my hands know what to do when the rest of me don't know what to do there's something about those three deep breaths getting into your body and then you're present. That doorway is open. But it is a practice, but it works for me and I think it works for other people too.
Shannon W.:I sense it would work for me because even when you said you know I have this practice of taking three deep breaths, I immediately closed my eyes and felt like I wanted to take some deep breaths just at the suggestion of that. And and I appreciate that you said three deep breaths into your belly, not just three deep breaths, because we can, you know, we can breathe up into our chest and pull up the energy, but breathing into our belly, there's something literally visceral about that and it's grounding.
Denise K.:Yeah, because it totally brings you into the present moment and it's a physical thing that happens. It's physical because we are physical beings, we are here on earth, we are earth beings. To that place, where we are, in that present moment, with what we are doing. Is really is the first step to walking through that door, and it's an important one.
Shannon W.:Well, and it makes sense to, I guess, intuitively, or maybe it just makes sense that to come into the present moment, we would need to pull ourselves out of the monkey mind, because the mind is involved in past and future. When the mind is ruminating or planning or worrying, it's by the very definition it's not present. It's focusing on something in the past or something in the future. That's right, yeah, yeah. So pulling ourselves into our bellies and just out of our minds, it makes sense that it would bring us present with what's happening now.
Denise K.:Well, even with meditation teachers, they will say bring it back to the breath, bring it back to the breath in there, back to the breath. And they're so because your mind does want to go off. There's nothing wrong with that and it's okay that it's doing that, but just bring it back, just gently bring it back and breathe and remind yourself. We are doing this now. This is what we're doing entering into this place, which, for me, is a sacred place, so we want to be totally present for it.
Shannon W.:Thank you for that reminder that it is a sacred place and the present moment is a sacred place as well. Sacred place that present moment yeah.
Shannon W.:I feel calmer just talking about that, denise, and moving into this next question that I want to ask you. Okay, so I noticed that you're careful to state in your video the idea that we are all artists and creative people, that the gift of creativity is not something I don't know that you say it exactly this way, but this is how I took it the gift of creativity is not something that falls on a select few people, but that all of us are creative people. And you specifically talk about when we're young children and we love to create and it's we create joyfully, we're joyfully artists. But that then as we get older and you mentioned this a little bit, even a few minutes ago, about our lives kind of get in the way and our jobs or our stresses but as we get older, we forget that we're creative, we forget we're artists or we even come to believe that we're not creative and we hear people say this oh, I'm not a creative person, I couldn't do that.
Shannon W.:It's nice, you're talking about creativity, but I'm not an artist. And I think it's so important that we all remember that we all were born artists and that if we forget or don't believe we're artists, that's not because we're not, it's because we've taken on a belief or a program that for some reason tells us we're not. So I wonder what would you say to someone who's in that place of believing themselves to be not creative or not an artist?
Denise K.:Well, in a way that's kind of a negative thought, isn't it About? If you feel like you're not creative or I can't do that, and to me negative talk or negative self-talk kills off creative innocence and joy. So we have to be mindful about what we say to ourselves and each other. You know, for a while when I was teaching in the early days, when I was teaching, somebody might say something oh, I totally screwed it up, oh, I just can't believe, I just did that, or whatever. Whatever they're saying, that's negative and it takes, and I couldn't figure out. Why does that bother me so much? Why does it bother me so much? I mean, it's okay that people, you know we say things to ourselves or whatever in the teaching and in classes. And I feel differently about that now, because what I know is that when you're negative or you say something negative, it sucks the energy out of the room. Not only does it suck the energy out of you, but it sucks the energy out of anybody else who hears it.
Shannon W.:So you were feeling it when they were making those statements? Oh, I just messed up.
Denise K.:Right. It took me a long time to figure that out, and part of it goes back to that part of being kind to yourself, being kind to yourself and what you create. Because if you're negative about what you're creating, what is it about? That creative part of you that wants to hear that Nothing. Nobody wants to hear that, so why would it come to you again? So always if I'm making myself clear here you should always be kind to yourself and what you create.
Denise K.:Oh wow, because when you say negative things about yourself or your art, you release an energetic poison that weakens the cells of your brain. They've done studies on this. Oh my gosh, that comes from for me. So when you say negative things about yourself or your art, you release an energetic poison that weakens the cells of your brain and your body and also affects and weakens those who hear it oh my goodness. So it's very important that you are mindful about what you say. I mean, sometimes you can think it. I suppose what I tell my students is you can think those things, but do not ever say them out loud. You know, I'd prefer it if you didn't even think of them, but you're not allowed to say it out loud.
Shannon W.:Wow, because you really are.
Denise K.:Yeah, it really does have that effect Wow.
Shannon W.:Well, and it also has the effect as you were just saying I thought this was profound, what you just said that it can also have the effect of sort of estranging us from our creativity, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, if you're saying, well, your creativity doesn't want to be talked about like that, doesn't want to be talked to like that, it might leave and not come back because it doesn't want to be treated that way.
Denise K.:No matter what you create, it has important information for you. Even if it's just, if you're not a good drawer or whatever, you're still putting that energy out onto into this reality and there's something in it, however unsuccessful it is, trying to communicate with you and tell you something. I feel that really strongly, no matter what it is, and that we should always nurture that and continue to nurture that in children that you know creativity and what you're doing. It's exercising that imagination muscle, imagination muscle. I said that to. I was reading this book to my. I read to my grandsons almost every night. They are nine and six and we were reading this very imaginative book and I said this is really a good book for you because it exercises your imagination muscle. My grandson said I didn't know we had one of those. And I said, yes, you do. And do you know who Einstein is? And they said, yes, we do. And I said Einstein said imagination is more important than knowledge, said imagination is more important than knowledge. So that's why it's important for us to nurture that imagination.
Shannon W.:We all need a grandma that teaches us to exercise our imagination muscle. We even just to have that. Like he said, I didn't know there was an imagination muscle. Well, guess what Now he does. If we don't know we have it, how are we going to exercise it?
Denise K.:Yes, I think you know we're all born with that genius and through busyness or life, you know, we start letting go of that imagination genius. Go of that imagination genius, and it really is. That's how we get new ideas and new thoughts about how to take care of our world, and it's that important to keep your imagination strong.
Shannon W.:Hmm, yes, that reminds me of another point in your important things to remember.
Shannon W.:I think maybe my favorite point was about this was about the world needing our creativity.
Shannon W.:It's about when you said what well, I think what you said actually in the video is like what you create might be crucial to what you need now, but more importantly or just as importantly, what you create might be crucial to what our world needs now, and I thought this was so important, denise. Our world is in such a sorry state in so many ways right now, and I think people who are hurt by this and who want to contribute something or want to give, or want to participate in healing our world but the problems can seem really big and the idea of being creative might actually seem like how can I be creative when the problems are so big? How can I spend my time on creative pursuits? How dare I do that when the world is in such dire need? But what you're actually doing there is you're flipping it on its head. Instead of people thinking, oh, that creativity is a luxury that I don't have time for right now, you're actually saying the world needs your creativity. This is the very thing that the world may need most right now.
Denise K.:So really important, not only for your own well-being but for the well-being of the planet. That's how important doing your creativity is. Whatever that creative outlet is, it's one more person closer to the well-being of the planet. So you know, I came across something today. I was kind of cleaning up in my space here. I'm going to grab it. Okay, and I have no idea, I even pulled it up behind something on the floor. It says changing small things actually changes the future. There's something about every small thing you do. Every little thing you do makes a difference and how you do it. That's why, if you think of your whole, the way you live, as being an artist, everything you do, the way you water your plants, the way you feed your pets or your animals or take care of your children, those are so important just small things. It could be just small things, not just being an artist or creating poetry or dance. All of those things are a creative act well, and you say that.
Denise K.:You say not only is it important the small thing that we do or the small things that we do, but how we do them, yeah, yeah, and that we can do even small things with artistry and that if we do them with intention, and do it with those three deep breaths and being in the present moment, I just think it is an exercise that we need to come back to, into our animal selves.
Shannon W.:Yes, well, and something we can practice. Then it makes me think of, actually, thich Nhat Hanh and his, when he teaches mindfulness, and he's mindful with the cup of tea, and he's mindful with every step he takes, and he's I know I'm not there yet, but someday maybe, maybe I could be mindful about everything.
Denise K.:but I know that in the creative, in my creative world, I am Something else in what we were talking about. When you do even small things, that when you are creative or when you're being creative, that you may not know the importance of what you have just done until much later, like, sometimes we don't know the effect of what we're creating until much, much later. And sometimes, well, I think of Van Gogh and he, you know, he kept working and he never knew the effect of his work.
Shannon W.:Oh, that just gave me goosebumps when you said that.
Denise K.:And so just our small acts of kindness, our small pieces of creativity. We may not know the importance of it till later or ever even.
Shannon W.:That is such a good reminder not only of the effect that each of our actions has on the whole world, but also on this tendency. We can have to think that our creative work needs to have some kind of an immediate response or an immediate audience or an immediate approval, whereas the value of that art may have nothing to do with whether or not we receive approval for it. In the moment, the value can go far beyond what we can even imagine. What we can even imagine.
Denise K.:Yeah, it comes back to that trust that what you're doing is important, and if it's for just you, right here, right now, that that that is in itself very, very important to the world.
Shannon W.:Yeah, shouldn't that just be good enough.
Denise K.:Shouldn't that be just good enough?
Shannon W.:Yes, yeah, but it's bringing joy to you and it's bringing joy to your life or whatever it's bringing to you and is emanating from you and going out into the world and if it feels right to you then it's right it's got to be and I trust If it feels right to you, then it's right, thank you. Thank you for that. We can question so much whether our gut instincts are true. Yes, can't we?
Denise K.:Yes, absolutely, we can, for sure.
Shannon W.:And that reminds me of a term that you used in your video when you were talking about ways that people get disconnected from our creativity or identity as artists, and you said you know, there's the critics and the judges, and then there's also art abuse. Yes, and when you said that, that really struck me. I wanted to ask you to talk about those critics, judges and what is art abuse?
Denise K.:Well, when you have a teacher or somebody in authority who says you can't draw, you're not creative or you don't have anything important to say, I mean all of those are terrible things. I'm sorry I've just said them, but that's what art abuse is, or that's what that is abuse to me. And I've had teachers in college. I had a teacher who it was during a critique, and it was this large painting that I have, and it was this large painting that I have. And he said well, you know, I'm just not sure you have anything to say. And that really stuck with me for a long time. But mostly what I did was I quit the class.
Shannon W.:Good for you.
Denise K.:I did not believe that, because I did not believe that, you know, I would come inside and go. Oh, that is totally not true. He was projecting, because he was definitely.
Shannon W.:Wow.
Denise K.:So you had enough confidence and self-knowledge that you were like that's not true. I really, I mean, it can be just an offhand thing. You say that has a huge effect on your life or on somebody else's life or a child's life or a student's life. And yes, I'm glad that I had the wherewithal to not believe him, because it was an important piece of artwork for me and for other people too actually yeah, so he was total wrong he was double wrong, totally wrong, and thank goodness.
Denise K.:But that was, that was heart abuse and it's not good. I don't like to know that. There are teachers out there who would say that to a student. Good, I don't like to know that there are teachers out there who would say that to a student. I also had a teacher at the University of Georgia that said you can't do anything new, it's already been done, not to me in particular, but to our class.
Shannon W.:It's so deflating to hear I was going to say, talk about deflating a whole group of students, and why are you even there?
Denise K.:I know so there are things like that. That's, the inner critic is one thing, but to have somebody outside say it, I mean that can affect you think, well, I'm not, maybe they're right, I'm not creative, and leave that path behind.
Shannon W.:And what a sad thing that is, and it does happen, I think, quite a lot. I've heard a number of stories of people being told by teachers you're not creative, or you're not an artist, or you can't sing or you can't dance, and you know it's. We internalize those things sometimes when we're too young to realize that it's not true Exactly.
Denise K.:Yeah, and it's not true. It's a big fat lie.
Shannon W.:A big fat lie. That's what it is A bald face lie, absolutely A bald face lie. And you know, to me that does bring it's. It's. It's empowering to talk about this, because we can remember how important our language to other people is, as you said, and how we can use our language to empower people rather than to deflate them.
Denise K.:That's right. Yeah, I mean you can be critical or I've certainly done classes where we have a critique but my rule was always we can have a critique and we can talk about things, but you are not allowed to say anything negative. You can say positive feedback in ways, but not to come out and just be a blatant negative person, critical in that way that it's really important to be constructive rather than destructive.
Shannon W.:Yes, a wise thing to remind your students before a critique, right? People are going to take this very seriously. We take the opinions of others very seriously.
Denise K.:Yeah, we do. We always remember that critical comment we do, we do.
Shannon W.:We can remember. We can have 10 positive comments about something, and then that one critical comment is the one we're going to remember 20 years later.
Denise K.:Yep, so it's just part of our human nature, and so we have to combat that or not combat it, but reverse that, yeah, because it's true, it's a bald-faced lie.
Shannon W.:Call it for what it is. Yeah, call it out for what it is, absolutely Well, I noticed that I'm watching our time and I'm noticing that we're starting to get toward the end of our time and I want to make sure and ask you about your refined list. You mentioned that, since you created the video about the important things to remember, you've done some further work on it and some refinement to it, and we've touched on a number of the items in your original list, and I wonder if there are some things from that refined list that you would like to share um, yeah, let's, let's see.
Denise K.:Um, this is important to me. Imagine this what you create creates you. Um, let let go. Let go of expectations, let go of perfection, let go go of control. When you try to control things, it stops the flow of new information, and we really need some new information. It's like people talking about, well, let's go back to normal.
Denise K.:Well, that's trying to control something that has already changed in my mind that has already changed in my mind and if we can let go of that control and allow new information to come in, I feel that that's important. There are no mistakes, they just lead you to new possibilities and my favorite relax. You can always rework it later. So, yeah, those we. We touched on all the others, but there were a couple there that we didn't.
Shannon W.:You. Going through that list and touching on those additional items reminded me of a sense I had the very first time I listened to your video, which was hey, this is relevant to creative work and art, but it's also relevant to life. Yes, it is Life in general. How many of us struggle with the critic or the judge, or with perfectionism, or with needing to control Yep? And how many places in our lives is something needing to come through, something wanting to be said or done or lived, and because of those behavioral patterns or thought patterns we have, we don't allow it to come through? So it's made me start seeing creativity.
Denise K.:Of course, creativity is all around in life, it's not just something we do in an art studio, but it made me see this, this creativity, as a metaphor for all of life, and the lessons we learn through creativity can be lessons that we apply to the rest of our lives, and maybe vice versa yeah, and that's why, know, I think it is so tragic in schools that they stop art programs, they stop music, they stop drumming or all of these things are so important for our developing bodies and how important those things are for those other the maths and the science and the, the, the social, the other things in school. Art is so important that it should be at the top of the list in schools, oh gosh.
Shannon W.:You know, when you were talking about that, I had this image of having somebody's feet just cut off at the bottom and then being told to walk. Like you know, the art in music and creativity being just foundational to who we are as people. And if we don't have that, how are we supposed to be rooted enough to learn these other things? Or how are we supposed to have the resources we need for for all of the other learning?
Denise K.:yeah, because we can't just be live in our heads, look at where it's gotten us true that we need that connection, we connection, we need the arts and the music and the dance and all of those things are so important to children and to become adults.
Shannon W.:Oh, my goodness, I just have a prayer. I have such a prayer that the loss that we've been experiencing of these arts is reversible, that we can undo some of the damage that has been done, that we can reconnect to our creative source and our creative selves and heal the wounds that we have, the wounds that we have and the wounds that we've created in the world. It's really a prayer.
Denise K.:Yes, yeah, it's my prayer as well.
Shannon W.:We share a prayer. Yes, Well, Denise, it's been such a pleasure talking with you and I would love to let people know where can people learn more about you and your work.
Denise K.:Well, I do have a website. It is drawingonthedreamcom. I do have a book out called Drawing on the Dream Finding my Way by Art. That's another way. I'm on on instagram. It's a great way to see all of uh, some new work that I'm working on all the time, and also my, my, um, my, website. You can do that as well on instagram. I'm at denise kester okay, on the website, if you're're interested in receiving what I call, or what I used to call, monthly musings. Every once in a while I do send out a newsletter, but mostly I'm sending out art lifts postcards by email, and people can sign up on my website for that.
Shannon W.:And those art lifts. Those are emails coming out that contain an image of a piece of your artwork. Right?
Denise K.:That contain an image and sometimes a story. Yeah, and also places where you can go and hear the poetry or the stories about the artwork.
Shannon W.:Wonderful.
Denise K.:I'm available out there.
Shannon W.:Well, denise, I see you as not only an incredible artist, but also as a teacher of what I would say is the way of the artist. So not only are you doing your own work and putting that out into the world, but also inspiring and helping the rest of us and empowering the rest of us to also make our own creative voices heard as well. So I am so grateful for what you do both your work and your inspiration and your guidance and I'm so grateful for your time today. Thank you so much for joining me.
Denise K.:Well, thank you for this opportunity. I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.
Shannon W.:That's it for this episode of the Wake Up Human podcast. I hope you enjoyed the conversation with Denise Kester. To learn more about Denise, visit her website at drawingonthedreamcom. More about Denise visit her website at drawingonthedreamcom. And to learn more about me and the Wake Up Human podcast, visit my website at shannonwillscom. As always, if you know someone who might benefit from listening to this episode, please forward it to them. This podcast is a labor of love for me and I'm thrilled if this work can be of benefit to someone else and if you like the podcast, please consider giving me a positive review on whatever platform you listen to, if that's available, as that will help me grow and reach more people who might enjoy listening. May we all find our innate creative spark within and contribute our own creative power to a world that really needs it. Thanks so much for listening and I'll catch you on the next episode of Wake Up Human.